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September 15, 2012
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Buffy - Rant about Spike vs Angel by airagorncharda Buffy - Rant about Spike vs Angel by airagorncharda
I'm not saying Buffy is at fault--I'm not a person who would ever blame the victim, and that scene in the show was adequately horrifying and realistic. She could have definitely done some things differently to help prevent this situation though. She put herself in a bad situation, and confused the hell out of someone who was already confused. Not her fault, but not entirely his either.

My main issue is with the Angel-adoring fans who hate Spike.

[EDIT: If I made this comic now, it would not look like this. There are some parts of this that I articulated poorly, in offensive ways. There's some blatant sexism in here, some casual ableism, and my wording makes it sound like I'm okay with rape culture, which I'm not. I didn't really understand rape culture at the time I wrote/drew this. I do now. I stand by my overall point, which is that the fandom is hypocritical about their assessment of Spike VS Angel, but I do not stand by all of my minor points. I definitely do not stand by all of my drawings. There's some distasteful shit in here, and I'm sorry. I feel that taking it down or editing it would be denying culpability, so I'm leaving it up. I did this, and parts of it are very wrong. I own up to that.]
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ltgenehunt Featured By Owner Oct 10, 2014  New member
Wow Hitler loved dogs.  Does that make him a good person even though he led the slaughter of millions?  As a person that watched every single ep of BTVS when it aired and continues to watch the reruns I take issue with anyone who has never watched the show and or has only watched a few eps particularly one that JUST saw "Seeing Red."   To defend a characters violent actions so vehemently makes me wonder what violent action(s) they justify in their own lives because only one that harbors such violence in their own minds would defend it to the hilt with a FICTIONAL character.
Full disclosure: I liked the Buffy/Spike dynamic at first.  Bad boy realizes he is in love with good girl tries several ploys to get her to notice him, when these fail he decides to see her as a human and act selflessly on her behalf even though her friends and father figure can't stand him.  Then finally Buffy, back from the dead and suffering from PTSD finally sleeps with Spike bringing more truth to her statement, "You had a better chance with me, when I was unconscious".  In a sense Buffy was indeed unconscious, sleepwalking through her life's endeavor as it were (OMWF).  However for anyone to say that Buffy somehow deserved to be almost raped because she treated Spike like shit and how dare she after his heroic deeds reeks of psychopathology.
airagorncharda Featured By Owner Nov 3, 2014
1) I'm really not sure why you seem to think I haven't watched all the eps of Buffy (and Angel, and read most of the comics)? 

2) I NEVER said she deserved it. She DIDN'T deserve it. Victim blaming is reprehensible.

3) I'm not defending his violent actions. His violent actions are also reprehensible. 

4) as I said in my edited comment, this comic was made a while ago, and I know now that I didn't articulate myself well, and accidentally said things in a pretty offensive way. I get that and I apologize. 

What I'm trying to say is this: 

Spike should be held accountable and responsible for his actions just as much as anyone else in the show, but people in this show jump from good to evil and back to good all the time, and nobody ever gets blamed for their "evil deeds" once they're "good again" except Spike. Basically everyone said "Oh, you're good now? Okay, all's forgiven" to Xander after "the pack" and "once more with feeling", to Anya when she stopped being a vengeance demon (1,000+ years of torture, slaughter, murder, and probably plenty of orchestrated rapes, all forgotten because she... no longer had powers. She wasn't even good, she just didn't have the capabilities to do bad on that scale anymore), when Angelus turned back into Angel (despite everything he had done in just the few short months he'd been Angelus again, from murdering Miss Calendar to trying to destroy the entire world--and this isn't even mentioning who Angelus used to be, or what he'd done in the distant past, or the things that Liam and Angel himself did that the main cast would think were abhorrant if they knew), Willow (I know she had to work for it, but that was more to get it under control than for her friends to forgive her), even Buffy any of the times she's betrayed her friends under magical duress, and the one time Tara almost got them all killed. 

Anya's and Angel's histories, as well as arguably Willow's and Buffy's fuck-ups and violent incidents, are either on par with or go far beyond one incident that he almost died trying to make better in any possible way. That's my view at least. He should be held accountable for his actions within the parameters of accountability already displayed in the show. Faith tried to rape and murder Xander and if she hadn't been brained with a 2x4 by Angel she would have succeeded, and yet later in the same day they were all still talking about how they wanted to help her get better (except for Xander who was sitting apart from the group and not saying anything at all). So this isn't a new concept for this show, but it is a new way of handling it, and I feel that the show is being hypocritical with it's condemnation of Spike when it neither condemns Faith nor Angel for similar actions. 

Buffy has an ongoing sexual relationship with a man who she KNOWS has a sketchy (at best) grasp on the concept of consent, and in their relationship she is constantly saying "No" and "We are never having sex again" and "Stop it" and then SHE actively and enthusiastically participates in the sex that transpires... The message that she is giving is that "no" and "stop" don't actually mean "no" and "stop". When their sex life also often involves fighting, she is giving the message that fighting also doesn't mean "stop". Then when she says no and means it, he misunderstands and almost rapes her. It's more complex than people make it out to be, and it frustrates me when people paint it as though it's simple. Communication is paramount for healthy sexual relationships, and of course their lack of communication was both an indicator and a perpetuator of the unhealthy nature of their relationship. However, their relationship was never really addressed. 

I feel very strongly about sending the right messages to the audience with fiction. I think a lot of people could have learned a lot about HEALTHY relationships, by seeing this unhealthy relationship addressed more directly in a show like Buffy. 
Tsukushiiii Featured By Owner Sep 9, 2014
I've been saying this same thing for many years now and people keep looking at me like I'm horrible, but they forget how many good things Spike did being SOULLESS. He used to take care of Dawn, help the gang and chat with Joyce, for god's sake!
Yet nobody thinks what a SOULLESS Angel (aka Angelus) would have done in his place. Would Buffy had let Angelus take care of Dawn or Joyce? Hell no!! "Angelus isn't more than Angel with a demon inside!!" Well, sweetheart, Angel is Angel the same way Spike is Spike when they have no soul, that doesn't change because you call one of them in a diferent way. Plus, Spike without soul has a love capacity that soulless Angel never had, I think that's brownie points for Captain Peroxide.
P.D.: right now you are my favourite person on the Universe. Just saying.
carrie-lou Featured By Owner Jul 20, 2014  Hobbyist Artist
Thankyou!! Well said!!

Spike is one of the best characters to be ever created on the show! Dont get me wrong i love angel and Angelus BUT both are two separate entities and shouldnt be compared to Spike as they are unique characters separately with their own flaws, strengths and whatnot.

What I liked what Joss Whedon captured with Spike's character since its introduction not just personality wise...this Billy Idol type Vampire .....Before spike came along, there was a black and white view about who was good and was put out there very early on the show: Slayers/Humans Good (and ok some demons were good too) and demons/vampires are evil...but other than Angel who by then was cursed by a soul and was only capable of good deeds and redemption for a hundred years of evil shenanigans as Angelus.

What I liked about Spike, even early on, even in episodes like School Hard and Whats My Line P1 and P2, Becoming Part 1 and 2, Spike had very human emotions, true in a very twisted warped obsessive kind of way, but I think the poet side of him never went away and perhaps influenced him in his vampire life and he DID love and showed loyalty to Drusilla and later Buffy (with a soul or without) where Angelus was the complete opposite.

She could have definitely done some things differently to help prevent this situation though. She put herself in a bad situation, and confused the hell out of someone who was already confused. Not her fault, but not entirely his either. -Totally agree with you on this! It is a really REAL issue where domestic violence and abuse happens in romantic relationships its NEVER THAT simple!! Also that Buffy had detached herself emotionally and the fact that none of the Scooby Gang recognised this due to their own emotional detachments (except for Tara who stayed neutral with the whole Buffy and Spike thing which I liked, she tried to understand WHERE both Buffy and Spike were coming from) while the others when they found out reacted aggresively about it....
UncleFester73 Featured By Owner Jun 19, 2014
never really thought about it. at all. but i cant argue with your conclusion. have to say i always preferred spike to angel, even with his dodgy english accent
EljotLJ Featured By Owner May 24, 2014
hahaha finally someone who understands the real situation ^^
Ellygator Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
I agree with you - the AR was the culmination of the whole messed-up relationship these two had in season 6, but it wasn't the shocker to me that many people made it out to be.

Nearly every encounter that season started with Buffy giving off some kind of "No" vibe and then giving in when Spike kept pushing - the encounter behind the Double-Meat Palace, the scene behind the tree in the front yard. It was almost as if she needed to pretend she wasn't wanting it in order to feel a little less disgusted with herself, and Spike obliged, in keeping with his offer to have her put it all on him when she was beating him up in "Dead Things". He was prepared to shoulder the moral ambiguity for her.

On the other hand, he didn't have much luck with his attempt at a "No" in "Gone", the only difference, the writers decided to play that for laughs, but I think if a guy says "No" it should mean as much as if a girl does. Finally we should remember that (exaggerated and unrealistic) physical violence was always a big part of their relationship, and that soulless Spike had a past where he thought that tying up an unfaithful or difficult girlfriend and torturing her until she loved him again was a perfectly reasonable approach. To top that Buffy had shown him plenty of times before that she was not interested in any kind of connection that was other than physical. She usually told him to shut up or walked away if he attempted to talk to her about what was going on or to get her to open up to him in any kind of way that wasn't connected with sex.

I think the only thing that's surprising about the scene is that in the moment where Spike realizes that Buffy's "No" this time really is a "No", he gets a look of absolute horror on his face and backs off. For all they had done to each other before, it needed a kick to the head for him for Buffy's message to sink in and I do not think that he actually had a conscious intention of raping her before he got that. When he does get it, though, he reacts in a manner that to me shows how far he's come even without a soul. He does no longer think ignoring Buffy's "No" like before until she loves him is a viable option, he does not try to touch her again, he gets the hell out of there and does whatever he can to ensure he will never, ever do this again - gets himself a soul.

So I always thought that the folks who felt outraged about the AR should also be as vocal about insisting the pair should have been seeing a psychiatrist after their first sex in "Smashed", because that was pretty twisted, Spike getting a restraining order against Buffy after "Dead Things", and acknowledging that Buffy was at least out of line in "Gone". If they are cavalier enough to excuse those scenarios because it was funny or hot or fictitious, then there is really no cause for taking particular offense at the AR. It was as unrealistic and as much in keeping with the characters and the place they were in as the rest of the Spuffy "relationship" in Season 6.

The reason I suspect that it was not received that way is the crazy genre-smashing that we found in BtVS. The AR was filmed and presented in the same raw intensity as "The Body" so everyone had a very visceral reaction to it, the dubcon scene in "Gone" was in keeping with other comedy-inspired episodes, and "Dead Things" was just another kick-the-Spike sequence he always bounces back from, whether it be a spot of Glory torture, a plastic stake to the heart or Buffy landing a church organ on him.
comlodge Featured By Owner Mar 2, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Lizard1Princess Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
And Spike gave her the fire back, how come no one remembers that.

The problem is Buffy met Angel when she was 16 and hormonal, and life and death situations weren't so easy for her, she was learning how to deal with everything, so there comes the handsome mysterious guy to the rescue, he never helped that much but he did something, so she just remembers the good part, without all the danger and the fighting and the rescuing, she would have got to know him better and realized that Angel with a soul is just dull and flat, because he has no personality, is like a trapped animal, can't show himself, when he doesn't have the soul he can be evil and has a personality, is more interesting, not much, but it is something. Also, he gets everything handed to him, all the help and all the chances he can ask for, and he always does the worst he can with it. On the other hand, Spike, with or without a soul, gets shut down, beaten, insulted, nobody ever gave him a chance until the seven season (when buffy starts to believe in him) and he does do the best he can with what he has, always manages to get up and be better. That is way, when comparing Angel to Spike, Spike is my hero and when of the best fictional characters I ever known. :) 
ChickInTheRedHat13 Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2014  Student Writer
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